How Lockdowns Hurt Our Kids with Dr. Kat Lindley

Each week, the WCH Mind Health Committee hosts engaging conversations on Telegram. On April 27, Dr. Kat Lindley hosted a conversation on the damaging effects that lockdowns and other measures taken during the pandemic have had on children. Dr. Lindley was joined by Mind Health Committee members for this informative discussion.

Connection Room April 27

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 [00:00:00] Emma Sron: Hi, Dan. 

[00:00:16] Dan Suter: Hi, Emma. How are you? I’m really looking forward to this conversation cause I, I just think that you know, the harm that has been caused to the children is really the greatest tragedy with all of these lockdowns and yeah, all of these measures, if you like. And I just think, you know, cause we’re, we’ve had in New Zealand, we’ve had Omicron kind of racing through the community and everyone I’ve spoken to has had it.

[00:00:47] It’s like, it’s just a cold for a week and it’s not really a big deal. And I think, yeah, when we consider all the measures, it’s just so disproportionate. But anyway, welcome Kat. 

[00:00:59] Dr. Jennifer Hibberd: welcome everybody. to 

[00:01:00] the connection room. And we’re honored to have Dr. Kat Lindley, a member of steering committee of the World Council for Health, talking with us today on how lockdowns hurt our kids.

[00:01:12] So very important topic and Kat over to you. 

[00:01:16] Dr. Kat Lindley: Great. Thank you, Jennifer. And thank you everyone for joining us today. I’m a family physician in Texas. I was born in Croatia. I lived a little bit kind of all over the world. I speak several languages and now I’m really small town doctor with five children. Which is fun at times. Like today, we are actually at the college here in Fort worth, where my son is exploring if this is going to be his future.

[00:01:43] But, I’ve been very vocal during, COVID when it started. I grew up in communism from the beginning I felt there was more than just a pandemic and a virus. And as time passed, I realized that a lot of these decisions made by different governments, and in my, in our case, CDC, FDA you know, our own government, you just felt they didn’t make really much sense. And, for someone who grew up in communism, I really come from a different perspective. You know, in- I’m not going to take you down this route too much, but just to give you a little bit of background. In a totalitarian type of regimes, Marxism, communism, fascism, those are all totalitarianism, right? It doesn’t really matter what they are, they’re just names. 

[00:02:32] But the way it starts is they make you fear something. And after there is a fear, they isolate you so you really can’t discuss what to do and what’s happening. And then they start giving you these directives. And if you do this, we’re going to give you that. So it started with being at home, then six feet apart, then masks, then you know, lockdowns, and eventually experimental vaccines.

[00:02:59] And we’re not going to go into those parts, but I just want to talk to you about what happens in children, because I experienced this as a mom, as a physician, but also I’m on a school board, also like a politician, you know, I don’t consider myself a politician, but according to my friends, I am. So there’s perspective.

[00:03:15] When it comes to children, you have to really.. You know, we don’t realize how much damage has happened to them with this pandemic. And even with my own kids, I know when it started at the beginning, we were all scared. I was scared as well. And I would bring that fear home and my kids can feel my fear because, you think you’re hiding it, you’re not. 

[00:03:39] Kids know everything. Kids, kids are really smart. Even my nine year old can figure out that mom is not sleeping well, you know that I’m stressed and if you guys are human, like I am, when you’re stressed, you’re a little bit short with your kids. Sometimes things they do, I know you a little bit more frequently and you have to check yourself.

[00:04:02] I’ve learned to check and leave my profession on the other side of the door. So when I come in, my kids, don’t see. that. But even then, you know, when they go to bed, you start talking to your friends on the phone, kids hear everything, you don’t realize they hear everything, they know everything. So in retrospective.

[00:04:20] I speak a lot about what has happened. And I found that my voice is the voice for children because I see it from different perspectives. And just to give you an idea, we have learned that pandemic and I’ll quote, this specific study, this is one study that everyone talks about. 

[00:04:39] It was done in the United States. It was done in Rhode Island by Brown University. And they took about 700, I think it’s 700, 700 healthy children between the age three months to three years. And they evaluated them using a system called Mullen Scales of Early Learning, which evaluates their cognitive, their motor development, and converts those scores to the IQ.

[00:05:09] So, what I realized is that children who were born during pandemic, the IQ dropped 22 points. So Dan and the rest of the team has kind of discussed this last week a little bit when I introduced this idea and then made the comment. So you have children who maybe had a IQ of 100 drop down to 78. And that’s exactly kind of what happened.

[00:05:32] It’s really significant. So our children are starting with this huge deficit from the beginning and we have no clue what’s going to- how are they going to be when they actually start kindergarten, first grade, college, high school, all of those things. What type of milestones are going to be affected with this initial IQ drop of 22 points?

[00:05:55] So I would like to open this up to our panel a little bit to give me your thoughts on what you think about this. 

[00:06:02] Dan Suter: I’m not sure what you can say, except that it’s horrific. Really. It’s just absolutely horrific. I mean I don’t know exactly what life looks like for a person with an IQ of 78, but I can assure you it’s completely different to a life for someone who’s got an IQ of a hundred compared to 78.

[00:06:21] I mean, that’s probably bordering on you know, someone who needs to be looked after by the state, you know. I would say under 80, I don’t know. Can anyone else add anything to that? 

[00:06:35] Dr. Rima Laibow: I am by trim. I’m Rima Laibow, I’m a physician and I am by training a child and adolescent psychiatrist. So I have a bit of a perspective on this. Hearing this, any parent is going to be shocked and horrified. A drop of 22 points, whether it’s from down from 150 or down from a hundred is a cataclysmic loss.

[00:07:07] And I think it’s enormously important to point out that in the same way that the environmental circumstances caused these losses, environmental circumstances can repair the loss. So upon hearing this, any parent needs to say first, oh my God, that’s horrendous. And second, what can I do to reverse it? What you can do to reverse it as called stimulation. Whatever your priorities are, whatever your time assessments are.

[00:07:43] If you want to deal with this, you need to change those priorities and assessments and focus on interacting with your child, increasing the amount of verbal stimulation that your child has at whatever age, increasing the amount of time you spend reading, physically holding the child, contacting the child, doing interactive activities, whether it’s kitchen science or whether it’s going to museums or looking at bugs through a magnifying glass, it really doesn’t matter what the activities are as long as you’re putting your energy, your time, your verbal and emotional connection skills into that time with the child or children. And reading is critically important, but not the only thing that you can do. 

[00:08:34] Find things to enjoy together, figure out how to make balloon animals, draw, make castles in the sand if you live near sand or put sand in your backyard, if you don’t, but spend time playing and talking about the play and enjoying the connection. These are the activities. Of course, a high quality nutrition is always important, but these are the things that literally repair the neurological pathways. 

[00:09:07] Dr. Kat Lindley: I agree, Rima, exactly what you said. This so important because the damage has been done, but the damage can be corrected and might take time to actually reach the milestones and action going to bring the milestones next.

[00:09:22] But parents really need to step up and kind of retrain their children and stimulate their brain to find all those- for the reflexes to start working in concert so that these things can be reversed as much as possible. 

[00:09:40] Dr. Rima Laibow: And turn off the TV.

[00:09:43] Dr. Kat Lindley: 100%. Take away TV, phones, iPads. You know, I have to, as a mom, as a doctor first, I always counsel no TV time, things like that, but sometimes it’s easy to give your child an iPad because you need to fold your clothes or make a dinner, or, you know, do things. But we do need to take responsibility there and actually say for the health and wellness of our child, we need to take these things away. So that’s a great one. 

[00:10:16] But now I want to bring the CDC milestones then, and then, maybe we can discuss this. so in February of this year, CDC academy, American academy, of pediatrics decided to change the milestones that we had, I think I read from 2004. But anyway, the milestones that have been changed, they took about 50% checklists from the motor and vocabulary sides. And specifically crawling is not really important anymore, which is very misleading because crawling uses several reflexes and it’s a very important a skill for a child to learn. But they took- so at 24 months before, this is before, at 24 months, child needed to be able to say on average 50 words, they’ve changed that now to 30 months. The child needs to speak 50 words. And I’ll tell you why that’s significant.

[00:11:15] So I’m not sure if my children struggled with speech because I have an accent or they just struggled. But four out of my five children had to get speech therapy and I have two of them who are still in a speech. We recognized it really early. And I was able to put them into speech therapy early.

[00:11:40] My oldest child actually now still has a little bit of a stutter, but even, you know, just being a mom, we recognize the kids had issues and we put them as soon as possible and they have improved tremendously. So now if you changing these milestones and delaying them, you’re not starting therapy early.

[00:12:01] So again, what kind of effect will that have in the future? How long it’s going to take the child to actually develop speech appropriately. And everyone knows that. Well, I can tell you from personal experience, my 17 year old is extremely smart, extremely intelligent, academically gifted. But when he goes for an interview, he’s going to have to struggle because he does have a stutter and we’re still dealing with that and helping him through it.

[00:12:33] But can you imagine if we recognized that even later on how much damage that will have? And everyone knows that, well, I at least know that, that’s something that takes away some of his confidence. and, we need to recognize these things really early on in our children keep them building them up.

[00:12:55] And my fear is by delaying milestones, we are really setting them up for a bigger challenge. And in some cases for failure, 

[00:13:04] Dan Suter: Yeah. Well, well said, Kat. I was just wondering this is Brown’s University and the study, like, is it is it peer reviewed? So for example, my, my children are homeschooled, but if, if I had my children at school, one of the first things that would jump to mind because masking is still quite a thing here in New Zealand, is talking to the teachers and the principal about this and just saying, look, I mean, you have a responsibility here for these children.

[00:13:38] You know, if this is what’s happening because of the pandemic measures, because of the masks you know, are you prepared just to blindly keep following government guidelines or are you, are you prepared to at least have a debate with us? Perhaps we can get a few parents together. We’d be talking about this.

[00:13:57] Like, so Rima came out with some great, some great solutions and I’m just sort of thinking in terms of yeah, in terms of schools and getting- cause you know, in reality, like a lot of the education is for most people happening at schools. Yeah. How would you, how would you approach that Kat? Have you thought about that?

[00:14:14] How you might engage a school with this material? 

[00:14:20] Dr. Kat Lindley: So United States you know, it goes back to really recognizing these milestones early and I, and I do have grave concern that CDC has delayed these milestones, but the way it happens in the United States, if your child is less than three years old, then the state I believe helps with the speech therapy, physical therapy, occupational therapy, whatever it is.

[00:14:46] And if they are three and up then they go through the school system and school system kind of helps them. And for one of my kids, they actually went to pre-K through the school. So what happened when he was ready to go to kindergarten, he was already kind of part of the integrated into the school system.

[00:15:07] So it wasn’t a big shock for him, you know, because especially children who have delay, they need special attention. So knowing, you know, to give you an idea, one of my kids didn’t want to order lunch for six months because he was afraid he’s going, gonna do it wrong. school, see, I would say the schools definitely play a role in helping children who are having issues.

[00:15:34] But we need to remember that as parents, this is our child and we need to at the end of the day, ask our children, what are you learning? And you need to kind of monitor what’s happening because at times there are things that we might not agree with. And you know, being a school board member, physician, and a mom, I, you know, I always say responsibility starts at home.

[00:16:00] So we, we should not rely on schools to raise our children. Schools are there to educate our children. And when we, when we change those roles, that’s when you come up with some things that happen at school, and then in retrospect, you’re like, well, I don’t agree with that. So now let’s go complain to the school board.

[00:16:21] Or maybe if you actually participated from the beginning, these things would not fall through the cracks. 

[00:16:28] Dr. Rima Laibow: One of the really important things that we have to focus on here comes directly from what you’re saying, Kat. Among the other things that I’ve done, I’ve been a school psychiatrist for a lot of years.

[00:16:43] And the special education services that you were talking about being delayed will be unavailable to children who are within these quote newly normalized guidelines end quote. So if a child at 30 months has only 50 words instead of a child at 24 months having only 50 words when that child is four or five or six and is being evaluated for one sort of special education assistance or another, if they’re within the quote normal guidelines, which have been dropped, diluted, diminished and destroyed in terms of, of what ought to be normal assessment, then that child will be considered to be

[00:17:38] not in need of special services. 

[00:17:41] So even though their speech is delayed, even though their cognition is delayed, their neural development, developmental pattern across the board is compromised. They will be assessed as normal as a great economy for the school district. You’re on the school board, you know how expensive special education services are.

[00:18:04] This is, I hate to tell you, in my estimation, among the ways that special education opportunities are being cut out of the, the available range of opportunities for children who have been diminished and damaged by these pandemic experiences by the neurodevelopmental cataclysm that comes with the experimental jabs and with other vaccines.

[00:18:38] So this is, this is part of a system of diminishing resources for diminished human beings. 

[00:18:46] Dr. Kat Lindley: And then one thing I want to point out, I’m not sure how it’s in New Zealand and other countries, but speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, the health insurance is United States will only cover certain portions of it.

[00:18:59] And it’s quite expensive. It’s not really easy for parents to be able to afford these things. So we do rely heavily on the school system and the government itself to help provide some of these services. So that’s why it’s very important what Rima is saying by delaying the recognition, you’re going to have a lot of children who are going to be delayed in getting these therapies.

[00:19:23] Dr. Rima Laibow: Or not get them at all because there’ll be seen as within the normal guidelines. 

[00:19:29] Dr. Kat Lindley: Exactly. 

[00:19:30] Emma Sron: I wanted to add a little bit about how important it is for parents to involve themselves in this process. I- way back a while ago, I was a mental health practitioner. I worked with kids with autism and part of my job also was to be a county case manager.

[00:19:53] So I would work with families that needed extra help but didn’t necessarily have the resources or the information on their own to access all of the services that their children needed. And a lot of times that meant going to meetings with parents as an advocate for them as they worked with their schools, because the schools were trying- most of them, there were some school districts that were better, but the majority of the schools tried to give kids just the bare minimum of the services that they need.

[00:20:25] When they came to us as a provider, they would get speech therapy sometimes every day, usually about three days a week in school, it would be maybe once a week for a That’s not enough. I I had to sit with these parents and remind them that, you know your kid best and you know what you, you need and we need to demand that your kid needs services that will help them get through the struggles that they’re having and help them, help them to be able to, to perform better in school, to be involved in the activities that you’re trying to get them involved in.

[00:21:01] It was a lot of work for a lot of them. So the schools do have these, these things, but you can’t just expect it to happen on its own. You really have to be involved with it. So, yeah. It’s really important to, to keep an eye on those developmental levels. And then whenever you have a concern, bring it up.

[00:21:17] And if you don’t get the response that you want, that you are seeking or that you’ve, that really makes sense to you within your school or at your pediatrician or somewhere else, you can go to a third-party provider to just like seek out an evaluation or get more information to try getting a second opinion too. Because it’s so early in intervention, regardless of what’s going on, whether your child has something like autism or, or another developmental disability, or just as a speech delay, early intervention is so incredibly important and you don’t want to miss out on any time.

[00:21:49] So it can be hard to push when you’re not getting what you think you need, but just do it because it’s really important for your kids and to seek out somebody that can help you and help advocate for you too, if you, 

[00:21:59] Dr. Kat Lindley: I just want to say one thing, Emma said one of the most important things As a parent, you’re your child’s advocate. And you do not accept a no for an answer. You keep on going until you hear a Yes. Go ahead Dan Ken, 

[00:22:16] Dan Suter: but I was just going to say we not, are we not talking about ambulances at the bottom of the cliff and should we get more or shouldn’t we have someone at the stop saying, you know, don’t mask the child, don’t preach fear every day. Anyway, I think Kim, you’ve- 

[00:22:34] Kim Knight: I think what is a really important question to ask is why have they lowered the standards that the the milestones, I mean, does that mean that we are getting, they think, you know, the population of the world is getting stupider and if so, why is it should be becoming 

[00:22:54] Dr. Kat Lindley: I think from my perspective, I think they are trying to hide the fact that we are, that IQ has dropped and they’re trying to make it acceptable to say, okay, so this is our norm now. And that’s what I say as parents, we need to actually be informed and say, I don’t accept this. You know? And some of it starts at home.

[00:23:19] Like Rima was saying, we can reverse this by stimulating the child and doing homework at home. But the other part starts at school. We need to expect these institutions to provide the services. And honestly, just go back and say to whoever is evaluating the child is say, well, I don’t expect, I don’t accept the new standard.

[00:23:39] I want you to evaluate my child based on those old milestones, because those are the ones that make sense. And if enough of us say, I don’t accept this, I do feel that we can make a difference, especially with our pediatrician, because you can go to your pediatrician and say, no, no, you evaluated the child and you write on the script that the child has a delay, and then that can override any kind of CDC guideline.

[00:24:08] Because CDC actually, what we found recently, it’s not a governmental agency for us. And we can talk into to mask and how that comes in, but we don’t have to accept their Carry on. Thanks. 

[00:24:20] Kim Knight: Yeah. Just to respond to that. I mean, what’s interesting, interesting to me as a person who is very interested in evolution of human consciousness, is that in theory, we should be getting more intelligent rather than less intelligent. So if the CDC or whoever thinks we’re losing our intelligence, then obviously, you know, we need to look at well, why are, why is that?

[00:24:43] And we know a lot of those answers, you know. Yes, if we’re eating junk food and we’re not exercising enough, and we’re looking at the screen all the time, then that’s really not going to help but what, because on the other hand, we’ve got all this technological advancement that is just racing ahead.

[00:24:59] Just so much change in the technology and yet the human consciousness, which actually is much more powerful ultimately than the technology is, is going the other direction. And I think I’d love to hear Rima. You know, you were going to share something about the, the, the, the 2030 thing and how that potentially keys in. 

[00:25:23] Dr. Rima Laibow: I am indeed, but I’m going to tell the person who’s I 

[00:25:29] Anne O’Reilly: I 

[00:25:29] think, just to go back just a little bit, assessing a child’s intelligence, surely it’s a reflection of, that mental, the kind of, you know, co you know, the emotional state of the parents and the caregivers, and, you know, have they assessed what’s going on in the families? Because I know a lot of parents are so scared and terrified that they’re probably not able to function as well and expecting them to go to the school and ask for things.

[00:25:57] They feel, they feel frightened. They don’t feel empowered to demand, you know, what they need from the school, because the school are actually being very authoritarian too. And I think a lot of the teachers are scared, you know, they’re scared of you know, like the whole situation. It’s the children being assessed,

[00:26:18] this is probably a reflection of the whole world that’s around them. Has, you know, they’ve and they’re not there to be able to give them the step, the stimulation and all the things that children should get, you know, or used to get So how can we assess that? Or what can we do about that? Or just even to support parents and caregivers more, and teachers maybe, so that, you know, that things can happen as they used to. Or people can be made aware that you know, like catchy or saying your children pick up on your fear while I think, you know, as humans, that’s what they do.

[00:26:56] And that’s what babies do too. So it’s all about bringing everything down or increasing the awareness of, you know, it’s urgent. Everybody does something. But I suppose that’s why we’re here really. 

[00:27:10] Kim Knight: The critical thinking like Dan just talked, you know, touched on about. Let’s talk about not, about taking our masks off. Let’s talk about not wearing them and asking questions. Why are you afraid of taking your masks off and bringing I 

[00:27:28] Dr. Kat Lindley: I just going to talk about, so the study itself, it measured children, like we talked about on Mullen scale, but it looked at some environmental factors surrounding what might have happened for this to happen. And some of them had to do, obviously with the lockdown, with the decrease of simulations from parents towards the child, a lack of engagement with other children.

[00:27:50] I think that’s extremely important because in my own children, especially my oldest one, when he was younger, he was diagnosed with speech delay that was causing social disorders. They did not put him on autism spectrum. They said specifically speech delay. But one of the things that we had to do is teach them how to interact with other children.

[00:28:12] He just never really developed that skill. So for these children in this study that had a play, the fact that they’re not interacting with other children. They also had increased exposure to TV and the computers. So that was one of the social components of, of how it affected children. The other one was children.

[00:28:36] And this was a big, big issue. let me find that part emotional security as well. And because the caregivers felt vulnerable that affected children as well. Their emotional security was affected because of the, fears and other things that the caregiver was so, housing clothing and housing was an issue as well 

[00:29:04] Dr. Jennifer Hibberd: To go back to the fear Kat, and you’re so right. And I have patients in my clinic, I’m a pediatric specialist, I’m a dental surgeon, but I specialize in pediatrics. And the children are so scared. A lot of them. They look at their parent and then I look at the parents to see, cause you know, I’d go, honey, you’re safe to take your mask off here.

[00:29:22] And they look at the parent and they can’t get the mask on fast enough, some of these children. I’ve had teenagers too, talking to me saying that they feel like they’ve had they’re most important years stolen from them. And that you just try, you try to then counsel them on, you know, looking at a brighter side of things and you know, they’ve got the family community, but they, they’re going to make a better place.

[00:29:46] You, you think of all the positive things you can to have them step away from this depressive side of things. Because then, then I also have another friend who’s told me that she heard her sister, a younger sister talking and with her friends and how she actually wanted to keep the mask on because she wasn’t, she’s now very insecure about her reaction socially with her friends.

[00:30:13] And if she makes the wrong facial expressions. And you know what young teenager isn’t concerned about trying to fit in. And by having these mask mandates and having them wearing their mask for so long, they have got out of practice, which was something that we considered just so natural because from birth, you’re looking at facial expressions and believe it or not, I know you look at people’s eyes, but you actually spend most of your time looking at people’s mouths because not only are you picking up the expression but you’re actually following the words and how they’re expressing their words.

[00:30:46] So we’ve lost that. And then the insecurity kicks in and they, and they’re worried. And they’re worried about being, being ostracized because they think they’re gonna have the wrong facial expression. So again, it’s, it’s their fear hiding behind it. And then we talked about it that as a group, before we met in this connection room about what is a mask, what does a mask do to people?

[00:31:11] Does a mask actually potentially alter the personality, because you can not only, not only cannot express yourself completely, you don’t have to express yourself completely because your, most of your face is hidden, but does it bring out other other negative aspects of your personality that maybe otherwise would be well-balanced if your whole face was exposed?

[00:31:36] So I just put that out to you to think that’s a very interesting aspect. 

[00:31:41] Dr. Kat Lindley: So let me walk you through mask a little bit. First of all, as a physician who worked in the hospital, every year, I had to go to do a fitting for a mask for my N 95 mask. I used to complain every year because I’m always medium n 95 and the way they actually do the testing is they, you put the mask on.

[00:32:00] Then they put a big helmet over your head and it has like a little hole where they can spray certain things. And if you sme- if you taste saccharin in your mouth, because saccharin is one of those things that can penetrate the mask. And if you taste it you fail the feeding, which means you need to change your your mask.

[00:32:19] So let’s just, so even just from there, I don’t even want to bring the rest of the science, why I feel that masks don’t work and it’s a whole sham, but let’s take it with our children. First of all I’ve spoken with plenty of teachers, especially kindergarten, first and second graders, by the end of the day, those masks are so filthy.

[00:32:42] You wouldn’t put them, you wouldn’t give them to animals. They’re so filthy, right? So what is the purpose of them? Children keep on eating, chewing, inhaling, whatever. It’s just like the hygiene behind the mask initial and does make sense. And then let’s really talk about the emotional development.

[00:32:59] Actually have several studies here. I can pull them because Dan likes studies. But there’s so many studies that showed that around age four to 15. Children’s accuracy of recognizing sad facial configurations, it improves, but it’s really important for children to see your face. Because if I say stop. Maybe they can figure out was my voice really stern?

[00:33:26] Was I joking? But if I say stop and I smile, my kids know that I’m just joking thing. Maybe stop tickling me. But if I say stop and I really mean stop hitting your brother, maybe I’m serious, but if I’m hiding half of my face, how can a child really at young age figured it out. They can’t because they develop these emotional cues with our facial expressions.

[00:33:50] They have to see the facial expression to figure out what is the meaning of that word. So we have damaged our children to an extent that it’s going to take years. And we were creating these little robot. This is my opinion. So please take it as it is, but we’re creating these little robots for having to guess what’s happening.

[00:34:16] They’re following directions without questioning them. And honestly, There is something to be said about a little bit of rebellion because that teaches child boundaries. You know, when my children act up, it’s my job to teach them boundaries that later on in, in life, in social engagement, if I teach them from the beginning, they’ll be able to figure out what they can challenge, what they cannot challenge.

[00:34:43] But if from young age, we’re telling them, you need to wear that mask. You need to stay six feet apart. If you take off that mask, there’s going to be consequences. I really wonder what are we teaching our children? And there’s just even beyond that whole emotional intelligence that they have not learned.

[00:35:00] So now when you look at the kindergartners you know, 5, 6, 7 year olds, they have to, they don’t really understand what our words mean anymore. And that’s going to really, like I said, it’s all of this, we cannot measure what’s going to happen. 

[00:35:20] Dr. Rima Laibow: I think everything you’re saying Kat and everything everybody else has said is not only accurate and deserves a great deal of parental action and input and concern on the people who look ahead to see where society is going, based on where our children are, are going and are being allowed to go.

[00:35:42] have to also look at the question that Dan raised a web about. Whether we should just get more ambulances at the bottom, whether we should put the, the standards back to where they were. So we have more children who need special services, that’s ambulances at the foot of the cliff, but whether we ought to look at the cliff. And I’m going to say something that may be unwelcomed to people that may be unhappy to hear, but I’m going to say it anyway.

[00:36:09] And if you choose to discard it, you can. I just sent an email with a book to Emma an ebook that I wrote on agenda 20, which is now called agenda 2030, which is a global plan, which has been signed on to by every country in the world that I’m aware of for future development, for globalization of development.

[00:36:35] And I hope Emma will put it on the chat so that people can can read the book. In it it says the children are to be under educated. This is a quote from agenda 20, which has been incorporated into agenda 2030, are to be undereducated because children who reached their full intellectual genetic potential are not, children consume more than their fair share of the world’s resources.

[00:37:07] Children are also to be under fed so that they don’t reach their full genetic potential in terms of growth, because then they would also quote, consume more than their fair share of the world’s resources. And it goes on and on and on. If you look at what’s happening now with the official lowering of standards of what normal is, which means that fewer people will receive services for the same level of delay, because it’s not considered a delay now. That is absolutely consistent with the plan

[00:37:41] to make children less able to communicate, to receive information, to think, to rebel. And indeed, I agree with you Kat, rebellion is an absolutely essential part of human development. And if you can squash it, you can control people better. This is a highly dystopian view of what’s happening even more than the events that are happening because it says, oh, this is intended as laid out by the global agenda called agenda 2030.

[00:38:15] It’s not a popular view. It happens to be the facts. And there are things that parents can do, must do, should do within their own families. There are things that educators and child development specialist must do, but this is a problem for every single citizen on this planet. We all must. No, no, this is not what we can accept.

[00:38:38] Not for normalization of less human potential genes change. Very, very slowly. Human health changes. Very rapidly. And what we’re talking about is a decline, a rapid intentional. Now well-documented decline in the neuro developmental health of our children. And we can either accept it with more ambulances at the bottom of the cliff and say, isn’t that terrible look at that.

[00:39:11] We better help these individual kids, but let’s not look up there at what’s happening at the top of the cliff. Or we can say, oh, we have to look at both the bottom of the cliff where the cataclysm is, is already happening. 22 IQ points is horrendous. It’s not just bad. It’s horrendous. The normalized IQ is a hundred points, 20 to a hundred minus 22 is a category.

[00:39:42] Or we can say, Hmm, that’s a big problem. I can’t deal with it. But the World Council for Health provides a vast amount of information. has presentations that you need to look at and also offers an opportunity to get together with the affiliate organizations in your country and deal with this because if we don’t deal with it now, we will never again have the opportunity to deal with it.

[00:40:09] And our children are suffering. But so are we. 

[00:40:14] Dan Suter: I have to totally back you up on that Rima. And I think for people who are still sort of at the top of the cliff or somewhere, and they’re observing this and they can’t quite believe it, you know, one of the, one of the classics is, and Kat, you might know this, but from having a fitted mask experience. A KN 95 mask that’s fitted will lead to an internal state of 24 to 26,000 parts per million of CO2 that you, that you’re consuming. Now in New Zealand, we have a standard New Zealand Standard 4303 which was set out by

[00:40:52] our health department maybe a decade ago. Which is that any indoor building in New Zealand should not be over 1000. Okay. And mainly one of the main reasons they bought this in was because children in schools were starting to fall asleep, especially around 1500, 2000. And you know, that’s typically what people would describe as a stuffy classroom.

[00:41:13] Right. You just basically ended up falling asleep cause there’s too much CO2. Now to be at 24 to 26 times that, okay, plus being fed a narrative of fear the two years, I know there’s a lot of different opinions and reasons like you said Kat, that does sort of try to postulate more TV could be, this could be the lockdown.

[00:41:34] It could be the lack of facial expressions. I think the elephant in the room is that when we have a health department, which, you know, generally we’ve trusted these departments in the past, and they’re saying the past one, 10 years ago, we’re saying 1000 anything more, it’s not good for human health.

[00:41:50] And then you’ve got the current health department saying, no, no, no, to be safe, you need to be 24 to 26 times that amount. We have to look at the inconsistencies here and we have to look at the basic logic. Okay. And I’m yet to have any politician or any health official or anyone be able to explain to me the cost benefit on these masks.

[00:42:12] And this is my point with going to the schools and actually challenging them on some of these facts. And every time I’ve done that, well, all I find they say is, oh, well, we’re not allowed to think for ourselves. We can’t make decisions. We just have to follow government guidelines. And you know, to your point Kat, we need a little bit of rebelliousness.

[00:42:31] I think this is, you know, the, the world wars of the past were very obvious, right? There were tanks, there were guns, there was nuclear bombs. I think this one is really psychological warfare. I think this is the challenge, is that we need to rise up and we need to take responsibility and we need to think for ourselves.

[00:42:49] And if you’re struggling to think for yourself now, imagine trying to think for yourself with an IQ drop of 22 points. And I think we just really need to look at this toxic cocktail of high CO2 and a rhetoric of fear. We already know that cognitive function drops a lot with fear. What about CO2?

[00:43:10] So one article I did find on it was that concentration still fine with high CO2, but what drops is initiative. Okay. And so the more, longer we’re wearing a mask, the longer we’re in high CO2, the less chance we’ll be able to take initiative and an initiative might be like, I’m not taking this vaccine cause it’s, you know, or this untested medicine because you know, 40% increase in mortality rates through, through the roof, you know?

[00:43:39] So I think this is really we’re at a, we’re at a really fundamental time and yeah, like ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. I mean, I think obviously we need to think about damage. Absolutely. but let’s the damage That’s my comments on this. what is really 

[00:43:59] Kim Knight: What is really 

[00:44:00] interesting about cognitive decline is that as, as, as it declines, we’re not even aware that it’s declining, if that makes sense.

[00:44:08] And then we have less ability to even question it. And I had that experience. Through EMF through being exposed initially when Wi-Fi rights was came out. And over a period of a few months, I noticed that I couldn’t concentrate. I was in my office, but I couldn’t concentrate. And then after about six months, somebody sent me an email and said, Hey, check this out.

[00:44:31] This, it’s talking about the effects of EMF, electromagnetic radiation and and I, and I, and I decided to tuck to turn off my wifi router. And I couldn’t believe it. I thought that maybe I might feel a difference in two weeks, but as soon as I turned off my wifi router, my, my head went clear and I thought, I can’t believe that.

[00:44:53] That’s just, that’s just unbelievable. So I turned it back on again and my head went fuzzy again and I turned it off and my head went clear and it was just absolute proof to me of the effects of wifi. So, you know, the same thing with the masks. If we’re breathing in all this exhaled air, which is actually toxic waste that our body is eliminating because our lungs and our skin are the biggest elimination organ of the body.

[00:45:18] If, if, if we’re re-inhaling this toxic waste that is actually designed to go out into the atmosphere and personally, I can feel it literally. I’m not kidding you. I’ll feel it in three seconds. Maybe. Yes. I’ve got too much toxicity in my body, but I am affected immediately. I put the mask on, I cannot wear a mask. If we’re being affected like that day after day, month after month, year after year, imagine what, what function. 

[00:45:46] Dr. Kat Lindley: One thing I wanted to talk about Dan is actually some of the solutions, and I think you think you homeschool your children, right? And I think that’s really important. You know, it’s important. for parents to realize you can step out of this system to such an extent, and sometimes even just taking them out of school and homeschooling, you know, letting them experience life, to travel, and doing life lessons while you’re doing that.

[00:46:13] It’s important. Do you mind touching a little bit on homeschooling? 

[00:46:18] Dan Suter: Well, I think that’s a great option. And you know, obviously for me, I’m, I’m quite relaxed about my children cause I know the environment they’re in. And I was thinking about this the other day, if I was, you know, imagine if I was forcing my children to wear a mask all day at home, you know, it would be fair to label me as, you know, someone who is cruel to children.

[00:46:40] And yet we let it go on at the schools unabated, unchallenged it seems. And I know there are a few people challenging it. But this is where I think part of perhaps if this is some kind of test I think this is, this is the test that we’re given, which is that, you know, we were always taught at school, you know, be quiet, raise your hand and you know, don’t challenge the teacher or whatever it was, you know, be afraid.

[00:47:06] Like you said, your child afraid to order lunch for six months. And I think this is as adults, we need to really assume our rightful position. And actually start challenging the schools on some of the logic behind this. And what I find is there is no logic behind it that just, they, they end up just saying, well, I’m just doing what I’m told.

[00:47:28] And as we know from the second world war, Nuremberg trials, that wasn’t an excuse. You, you must do what’s morally right. And so I think with the science that you’re presenting Kat is wonderful. And I think that should really, you know, kicking on from this I see that really it’s I kind of wish my children were at school, so I could be going to the principal every day and and challenging them. Because I know for a fact that they do not really have a comeback.

[00:47:53] So that’s, yeah, that’s my thoughts on that. 

[00:47:58] Emma Sron: I wanted to- my kids are homeschooled as well. It it’s something that I’ve thought about doing as long as I’ve had kids, but I actually pulled them out in the midst of the pandemic because switching to distance learning was not good for my kids or for me, it was, it was too difficult for us to do.

[00:48:19] And they were just had to be on iPads all day and it just, it didn’t make sense to us. And it, wasn’t an easy switch necessarily. You know, it’s a big change for your family to pull your kids out of school and start, start homeschooling. And it’s not it’s not easy for every, every family. But I know a lot of people that are hesitant to do it will say that it might not work for their family because, they can’t afford it. Or, you know, just th there’s a lot of reasons for you. but it’s always something that you can try. You can there’s kids that start homeschooling, and then they realize it doesn’t work for the family, the family doesn’t like it, the individual kids don’t like it, and then they go back to school.

[00:49:02] So it’s not like you’re making a choice. That’s going to be the your life. you can try it. And you really just have to decide what is best for you and for your kids individually, because there’s definitely something to be said for staying within some of these systems and trying to fix them and trying to challenge them and trying to change them.

[00:49:26] But that’s not gonna that, that sometimes the, the harm that might come to your, your kids or your family, the, the effects that that might happen in the midst of you also trying to challenge the system might not be something that you also want to sign on to do. works for you just to remove your kids from that and have an educate them at home, you have family when you make that decision. 

[00:49:51] Dr. Kat Lindley: Yeah, it’s important to know that there are great homeschooling communities and you can find them and actually do it as a community and children can still do sports and different things. So it’s definitely an option for people who can do it. Now on a funny note, I can’t. I swear that I would probably lose my mind if I was homeschooling my children because I have five of them and they all like to fight.

[00:50:12] So I couldn’t do it but I really, I always champion people that can do it because I find this a really wonderful, wonderful option. And I want to make one comment about distance learning. I hate it. I hated it. My Sammy was seven and a half. She had to zoom at 10 o’clock in the morning. He would wake up at 9:50, barely brush his teeth,

[00:50:36] and then like half of the time, I’m like, you need to put a shirt on. And the whole time the kid had no clue what’s happening. It was like, teacher was wonderful, but it was waste of time trying to get like 20 some, you know, seven year olds to actually follow instructions. So I think that was really a waste of time and showed us that especially kids, they need human interaction.

[00:50:57] They need actually, they need to feel welcomed. They need to feel the energy of the group and play and things like that. And I don’t know how much time have. But I do want to introduce last thing during the pandemic? And I’m S I’m quoting CDC quote, data here. So I’m not making it up About 22.3% there was spiking ER trips for potential suicides in children aged 12 to 17 year olds. And I can tell you from my own practice, I’ve seen a lot of young children who are not sleeping or having anger issues who are afraid to do normal things. And then in teenagers lot of anger, lot of depression. 

[00:51:43] And, ok I’m going to share something private, but one of my children I didn’t think I had a problem. It was my oldest. I didn’t think there was any issues, but I came home one day and I realized that he was severely affected by this. And luckily I did one of those phone a friend and I called a friend and we dealt with it right away. And I got him help right away. And honestly, he, he was able to overcome the issue. But sometimes you don’t realize that you might have a problem at home because you’re looking at everyone else.

[00:52:24] And it’s really important. That’s why I say it’s extremely important too when the kids come home, have these conversations in the car, if you’re picking them up and say, are you okay? Are you being bullied? Are you bullying someone? There’s also an important one hours asking my children that question, are you bullying someone?

[00:52:43] Are you struggling or fighting with someone? Because sometimes these kids don’t cry for help. And we had the situation here in a town close to us about 20 minutes from us, Dad found his 13 year old son. He hung himself in, I always, it makes me so sad, but he hung himself in the closet. He found his 13 year old son hung in a closet over his game.

[00:53:15] He broke his, it was an iPad. It was one of those game boy things. And the child didn’t know how to– that’s what the report was, you know? And it looks like he, he didn’t know what, what would happen to him. I’m not sure exactly, but it was something very silly. But I always tell parents, you and I can think that something is really silly that our children are making a big deal out of nothing, but to them it’s a big deal.

[00:53:44] So never, never discount emotion or feeling of a child because if my child wants to wear red shirt and I don’t have it, they can have a complete meltdown over it. And it’s a big deal to them because it’s not about that red shirt. It’s about maybe going to school and being part of his, his whole class is wearing a red shirt and he wants to be part of them.

[00:54:05] And I didn’t wash that red shirt the night before. So always, always, always listen to your child. To them it’s a big deal. And I think this pandemic has shown us how fragile their minds are. And we need to make sure that we are, that we do our part and we will really take care of them. 

[00:54:26] Emma Sron: I think we really need to work on giving them the opportunity to, to just process everything that’s happened over the last couple of years cause there’s, you know, something, something that seems small like breaking a game or something that, that may be a few years ago, wouldn’t have caused a big problem. Those things are starting to cause bigger problems than they used to because what’s happened over the last couple of years is that, you know, they all around March two years ago, so many kids stopped going to school and then they thought they’d be back in school a week later. Then they thought they’d be back in school two weeks later.

[00:54:59] And it’s like, we keep kicking this can down the road of what’s happened and why it’s happening. But we’ve never gone back to actually talk about what it was that happened and where we are now. We just keep ignoring it. And, and through all of that, we’ve really just taught them that we don’t go back and we don’t think about what we’ve done and why we’ve done it.

[00:55:18] And then there’s no accountability and there’s no processing. And they’re still holding onto feelings from a couple years ago, whether they were in kindergarten or junior high or high school and the friend that they never got to see again, because something happened during those couple of years or they moved, or they didn’t never get to see their favorite teacher

[00:55:37] again. There’s just so much undone and loose ends that need to be tied up from the last couple of years that I just don’t think is happening in a lot of kids. In school they’re, they’re generally not getting the opportunity to talk about those things, they’re just getting more new rules and stuff put on them.

[00:55:54] And I don’t know how much that’s happening in homes. and to process and talk about, and. Acknowledge their feelings and any concerns and thoughts they’ve had of what they’ve experienced and why they’ve experienced it. Cause it’s, it’s unlike anything most of us have gone through in our childhoods.

[00:56:15] It’s going to be something that none of them forget and it impacts them for the rest of their lives. It’s, it’s a we’re giving it the time and attention it needs in that way. 

[00:56:26] Kim Knight: And I think a big part of that is emotional intelligence training, you know, in general. I mean there wasn’t until before two years ago and now it’s even more necessary is like, how do we manage our emotional states?

[00:56:38] Because if we can manage our emotions, we can manage our mental state because you can’t override feelings with thoughts. Yeah. So that’s a whole other topic of discussion. Anyway. Sorry I have to go. I’ve got another meeting. 

[00:56:53] Dr. Jennifer Hibberd: This has been such a great discussion, everybody and so profound because this is about our children because our children are our future.

[00:57:01] So we do need to find a way to to reenter them into an expressive world that they’ve been not party to for two years now. So, and build their confidence. So hopefully we can bring changes around and the governments will bring changes around to eliminate this mask and not re-introduce them again.

[00:57:26] And then of course, you’re dealing with all the other fear, fear aspects of everything that we’re experiencing, and that’s what we’re here for in the connection room too, is to try and bring forward a lot of these fearful worrisome agendas and mandates and, you know, for whatever, the reason they’re brought forward, it’s still psychologically affecting everybody.

[00:57:49] You know, even if something is good that’s being grown by being introduced, there’s still a psychological component that always has to be dealt with. And certainly when there’s something that, that there’s confusion about and conflict about, it’s, it’s even a bigger issue to try to unravel the psychological impact it’s having on people.

[00:58:08] So it doesn’t make them just shut down, break down, get angry and not be the best person they possibly can be. So thank you everybody for being here. And we look forward to talking with you again next week in the connection room where we’re actually going to be talking about the same type of topic we’re going coming away from your fear and just that. Certain exercises and things that you can do to be able to step away from fear that you may be experiencing from whatever source it is from. And I’d also like to announce that on Friday, we have a connection room meditation and we look forward to your joining us there at four o’clock Eastern standard time, which I believe is nine o’clock London time.

[00:58:54] And is there another time zone that I should be mentioning there? Emma, do you have another one to, give everybody we’ll put it to That 

[00:59:04] Emma Sron: That is, 8:00 PM universal time. So I I’ve personally just been trying to get used to or minus universal. So like, you can always kind of anchor on that. 

[00:59:14] Dr. Jennifer Hibberd: Oh, okay. That’s great. And we will put a poster out and we will, I’ll make sure that it’s up in the discussion room. So you can all of that too. And we’ll actually, we could probably pin it there too. 

[00:59:27] Emma Sron: Yes Friday, we have Robito will be leading us and he’s here with us right now. I don’t know if you wanted to invite people yourself.

[00:59:37] Dr. Jennifer Hibberd: Come on Robito, we’re so honored to have you doing that. Thank you so much. 

[00:59:42] Robito Chatwin: No worries, absolutely. Now this Friday will I will do the guided meditation. 

[00:59:48] Dr. Jennifer Hibberd: Perfect. Robito will be doing a guided meditation. Your voice is a little bit low for some reason. 

[00:59:54] Robito Chatwin: Oh, okay. I’m using my laptop. Is that better? If I’m a bit louder now that’s okay. 

[01:00:00] Dr. Jennifer Hibberd: We can, we can hear. Okay.

[01:00:03] All right. I’m not sure why, but yeah, I’ll do that guided meditation on Friday. 

[01:00:07] Sounds great. Thank you very much. And thank you everybody for joining us. Look forward to seeing you again really soon.

[01:00:16] Thanks.


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