Challenging the Narrative with David Charalambous, Part 2

Each week, the WCH Mind Health Committee hosts engaging conversations on Telegram. On April 20, David Charalambous hosted a conversation about challenging the prevailing narrative.

He was joined by Mind Health Committee Members Dr. Jennifer Hibberd, Kim Knight, Anne O’Reilly, Dan Suter, and Charles Kovess to continue the previous week’s conversation on how to successfully challenge the narrative when speaking with people both online and in person.

Connection Room April 20

Watch Part 1 here.

David is the founder of Reaching People. His background involves 25 years of consulting to multinational clients and one on one with individuals from all walks of life. These include mums and dads through to athletes, high performers, and business leaders.


[00:00:10] David Charalambous: Can you hear me okay?

[00:00:12] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: We can hear you okay. Kim Knight has just now joined us from New Zealand. David is joining us from the UK. I’m joining you from Canada. And Dan is joining from New Zealand. And Kim, you are from New Zealand, I said New Zealand, right? Charles is joining us from Australia. So we have an international panel here today.

[00:00:35] Thanks, David. You’re ready now, right? 

[00:00:37] David Charalambous: Yes. Good evening. Okay. Challenging the narrative. I think we’ve all realized over the last two years that this was a lot more difficult than anyone imagined it would be. And there’s many reasons for this. The project that we’ve been producing, Reaching People, was really looking into this in-depth to understand what’s going on.

[00:00:57] And I want to just open with a couple of analogies to try and sort of lay the foundations for why this is important and how the way we look at it can really speed up our understanding of finding solutions. So one of the things is, is really when we think back to when we learned to drive, we got in a car and then we didn’t really know, we didn’t know how to drive. 

[00:01:20] And there suddenly we realized, oh, this is a lot more difficult than I thought it would be. And I think that’s what a lot of us experienced in trying to have rational conversations with people that a lot of them weren’t rational. But here’s the thing. It took us a lot of us, 10, 12, 15 lessons.

[00:01:35] And then we actually knew how to drive. So we were building skills and that’s how I like to look at learning to communicate to someone that has different views. It’s going to take a little bit of time. Very often the way the brain works when we can’t do something, we just assume it can’t be done. But this isn’t the case.

[00:01:53] What it is is that a lot of things can be done. It’s just that we need to find the way to do them. And we need to learn the skills. And reaching someone that has different viewpoints is like an obstacle course. You’re really transversing an obstacle course, but we have a blindfold on, okay. So what we’re doing on the reaching people is we’re trying to take that blindfold off the show, you many of the obstacles.

[00:02:17] And if you learn to navigate those, then you’ll be able to reach people much with much more success. It’s not easy. Let’s be very clear. It’s very difficult to have these conversations with success, but when you become skilled at this, they will be much, much easier. And it also has its emotional challenges.

[00:02:33] And this is one thing that we will touch on tonight. But one of the greatest skills in being able to have really good conversations is to being able to control our mental state, to be able to be calm. This obviously, with a lot of us and people we talk to, they become very charged, but that’s one thing we’ll address.

[00:02:53] And then there’s one concept that I want to touch on now, which for me is probably one of the most important, if not the most important. And that is the two words, information and communication. They’re used interchangeably, but they’re very different. Information is the given out of data, et cetera, communication is getting through.

[00:03:19] It’s actually getting that data to land. And that’s the difference between what’s been going on with so much is that so many people have produced so much information and put it out there, but the communication is where it’s getting through. And that leads me on to the really important point, which is understanding the difference between an output and an outcome. And to give you an example, if let’s say that there’s a traffic junction and many of the cars approaching the traffic junction are turning left when they shouldn’t. Okay. The people that want to solve this problem, they decided, right we’re going to put up a sign and we’re going to do some, you know, paint the road, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:03:58] And they may execute those perfectly. So they put the sign up on time. They do it within budget. Exactly. Perfectly. But people still turn left. Okay. That’s a classic example of the output being perfect, but it not achieving the outcome that you want. That make sense? So when you understand this, when we say, when I go into a conversation, it’s very easy to focus on output.

[00:04:26] I’m just going to share this piece of information with someone and, and that’s it. And I achieved my output job done. I’m going to send someone 10 links. I’m going to share videos. I’m going to post here and post there. But when we start focusing on outcome, my outcome is for this person to understand it.

[00:04:42] Or my outcome is for this person to say it back to me or my outcome is for them to realize it. Then we start to focus on what really gets through. Does that make, does that, is that understandable, Jennifer, in terms of a real, if we had that as our focus, then our checkpoint is always, did my message land?

[00:05:03] Did I communicate well? Did we get along? And that’s what we, if we measure a conversation by that, which is much harder to measure it, but it’s a much better signal of our success.

[00:05:15] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: You’re explaining it really well. I thank you very much. Carry on please. 

[00:05:21] David Charalambous: Yeah. So that’s, that’s the thing. And if you have that in your mind as your outcome, which is to have an outcome, not to have an output. So, so much or things at the moment is most of the effort, and particularly I, I spoke to one one of the scientific groups I know, and they said, they were quiet, they said, we realize that 90% of our effort should be on really getting people to understand this. But so much of our effort is producing content. So it’s really about if, if I have 10 pieces of information and I get zero to land, as opposed to having one piece of information, but getting it to land, you can see there’s, there’s a massive difference there.

[00:06:05] So we, we.

[00:06:08] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: David. We seem to have lost you momentarily. Hang on just a sec. You’re just freezing a little bit. Your point is well-taken though, because everybody wants to get all their points across, but focusing on one at a time and addressing one is, it doesn’t saturate somebody and make them very emotional.I’m gonna see if, I’ll, I’ll put my microphone on mute and see if you’re able to come back on.

[00:06:35] David Charalambous: Yeah. So one of the, one of the major things is to really start focusing on what is my outcome, what do I want to happen in the conversation? And as I gave an example last week is we do get very focused on what it is we want to say. And what often happens is that we spend so much time focusing on that, that we’re missing so many important things, right?

[00:07:02] Is the person listening to me? Are they interested? All these things. And what happens is that when the conversation gets a little bit charged and challenged, we then go into the emotional part of the brain and that shuts down our rational part of the brain and then we can’t remember what we want to say. 

[00:07:17] Then this begins to fluster us and then we get caught in this cycle. So, what we talk about is really to, to stand back, to stand back and start to look at some of these things. And we’re going to, I know we’re going to have a little chat about managing our emotional state cause that’s very key. And, and what I really wanted to really get across about the driving analogy is it’s going to take practice, but when you practice and you, you can find a friend to practice with, you can find that when you understand each of these obstacles and you learn to manage it and navigate it in a very ethical way, then your conversations will gradually get better.

[00:07:58] It’s not going to be a black and white thing. It’s not going to be suddenly I read 10 things and I can do it. It’s going to be this skill building over time.

[00:08:07] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: That makes sense. I it’s a, again, the emotional involvement in the topic, it makes it very hard to stay in that one point of discussion. So I know Kim, you’ve got some good comments on this too, and just about just the effect one person has upon another and just the impact of all of this and interacting. And I know you have a lot of skill in this area. Do you want to contribute here too?

[00:08:38] Kim Knight: Sure. Little tips, I suppose, on, on dealing with emotions or emotional reactions and responses. One of the most important things with emotional responses is to recognize that we’re having one that, that we’re having an emotional reaction and to be able to label what that, what that emotional reaction is, you know, is it fear?

[00:09:01] Is it upset? Is it betrayal? Is it sadness, grief, hurt, disappointment. You know, there are these key emotions that are constantly repeatedly triggered within us. And the first thing is just to be aware that we’re having a feeling because believe it or not, we can be having these feelings because feelings are automatically generated from within our body.

[00:09:27] They’re a felt sense sensation, and they’re actually part of our survival system, because they’re a means of communication because our body and what I call our body intelligence, which is below the neck, we have the head intelligence above the neck, which is where our rational mind is but the body intelligence is below the neck and it doesn’t speak, it doesn’t speak words.

[00:09:49] It doesn’t speak English or Chinese or German or whatever language, you know, we think in. It speaks felt sense sensations which we have come to label as emotions, but most people or many people are just not aware of what their, their emotions are. Often I will ask somebody, what are you feeding?

[00:10:08] And they’ll find it really difficult to label the feeling. So the first thing is to have emotional awareness, awareness of what we’re feeling, and then. And then, because emotions are irrational, thoughts are rational, emotions are irrational and you can’t think your feelings away, which is what most people are trying to do,

[00:10:26] they’re trying to analyze and rationalize and minimize up in the head, our feelings, are going to work because feelings are in the body. So then we have to have strategies to, to manage and clear those emotional responses. And the next step is to, it’s just to acknowledge the fact that we’re having a feeling, which is different from awareness. Awareness is okay,

[00:10:54] I’m aware I have a feeling. And then the next step, it’s a micro step, is okay, I’m going to acknowledge that I have this feeling and I’m going to own it and acknowledge it. And then the next micro step is to accept it without judging it. Because normally what happens is we go into self judging. Unconsciously, but you know, I’m bad for having this feeling.

[00:11:14] And that is usually all set up in the first seven years of life when we had no idea it was being set up at that time. And then we need to be able to, you know, to, to clear that feeling. And one of the things that feelings wants, which is what we’re least giving them, is validation. They don’t want to be fixed.

[00:11:32] They don’t want to be thought about. They don’t want to be understood from an intellectual perspective. They want to be validated. We need to validate the truth of how we’re feeling. And, and so we can just simply do that. Just validate the truth of how we’re feeling. And then there are lots of different techniques.

[00:11:52] For example, EFT tapping is one of the most common, useful, what I call first aid techniques for clearing emotions. And there are thousands of videos online to teach you EFT tapping. But the other thing that’s really important to recognize about emotions is that often people will say something like you made me feel angry, or you made me angry.

[00:12:16] So there’s this projection outwards on the other person that they are to blame. And it may well be that that person, for example, if they’ve done something unacceptable that is unfair, you know, considered unfair treatment, then that that is not respectful. It is not kind. And so our body is going to respond with anger because anger is the protective emotion when we’re just trying to protect ourselves.

[00:12:40] But what is really, really useful, and this, this is when we start taking more responsibility and going deeper into emotional emotional healing work is to recognize that usually the reason we get triggered by something is because that emotion was already inside of us and it was unresolved from a previous, similar issue.

[00:13:01] So that’s why we keep getting our buttons pushed. And that’s actually how life teaches us to, to deal with our stuff and to work through it and to transform it is by bringing us similar situations from the past that was unresolved. And so we just keep getting the same old, same old. So I could keep… but I’ll stop there.

[00:13:25] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: You know, I had a point to that is kind of moved a little bit, takes you one step beyond that too, which is dealing with exactly what you’re talking about is when you do get triggered and you have an emotional reaction to something and you try, you think that you’re in a logical state of mind. And let’s say that’s to do with sending a message back an email or a text and you write it out.

[00:13:52] And I do know that I try my best to wait before I send something like that, because I read it and read, okay, and I can go, okay, I’m being logical. This is really reasonable. My response is reasonable and I think it’s totally together. But then if I wait until the next day and I read it, I go, oh my God, I can’t believe I wrote that.

[00:14:15] I’m glad that I waited and you water it right down. And I realize it doesn’t matter what state, when you get in an emotional state when someone, someone says something that triggers emotions, it really does shut down your frontal cortex, right? It does shut it down. And you think that you are thinking with your frontal cortex and you’re not. And it’s just fascinating.

[00:14:41] You know, let me pass on to Charles. Why don’t you speak on that a little bit? Cause that’s fascinating, isn’t it? 

[00:14:49] Charles Kovess: It reminds me of a well-known story in the law, I used to be a lawyer for many years. This question of triggering, you know, challenging the narrative and triggering. Now I think it’s my view,

[00:15:03] my firm view that what Kim’s talking about is what the issue is here and that’s taking personal responsibility. I don’t think anybody can trigger me. I reject that notion. That’s my starting point. I can’t- you- nothing that any of you say can trigger me. I am the one who triggers me from what Kim talking about.

[00:15:24] And so what we’re doing is tiptoeing around because for the last 20 or 30 years, we’ve created our world deliberately in the west, where you must not say anything that might quote trigger end quote somebody. And so the whole offense industry has built up magnificently about people being offended and triggered.

[00:15:48] And that, that model for us human beings is a nonsensical model. Now, why is it a nonsense? Because the way your mind works, Kim touched on it, is that you, since you’ve been in utero have been collecting experiences. So I was raised by parents, different to your parents. Every one of you listening, watching here, your parents raised you in a particular way.

[00:16:22] Every experience that you’ve had has been recorded in your subconscious mind. You’ve got this collection of experiences and each one of us interprets what happens out there based on what’s in our subconscious minds. Now not one person on this call and not one person out of 8 billion people on the planet has had the identical set of experiences and, and where that leads to

[00:16:47] is that any comment, any statement that any of us makes will have a unique response from every person. What that leads to is my core principle for all of you to think about. Each one of us is a weirdo. We are dealing with weirdos. And when you start to understand that we’re dealing with weirdos, it shows you the enormity of

[00:17:10] all of the communication challenge for politicians because they going in trying to deal with millions of people and they’re dealing with millions of weirdos. And so the, the, the risk that we need to take in, and Jennifer, you touched on it, this coming from a space of not attacking somebody, but understanding the weirdo, it leads to this freedom to speak.

[00:17:33] Oh, did you the, did you get upset? Oh, it’s tough. Then tell me what that upset is about. And so when we learn to take responsibility and see that we’re dealing with, with weirdos, it liberates us to be more true to ourselves. I’ll give you one other story that had a profound impact on my thinking around this.

[00:17:53] It was from Tony Robbins. Now Tony Robbins, Jennifer, with you being in Canada and started his high publicity space, I think it was a, it was certainly in Canada. And he talks about what, what causes you to change your behavior? And I urge all of you to think about a time in your life when you’ve changed your mind, because this is, this is the, in the, in the, in the narrative, we go, well, I don’t know what to say.

[00:18:22] Well speak your truth, it’s very powerful. Tony Robbins tells the story about someone who could not give up smoking. Could not give up. Kept trying, kept trying. And then one day his daughter came in tears in her eyes, his 14 year old daughter, tears in her eyes. Her, her dad was smoking. And he said, what are you?

[00:18:40] What’s up darling? And she said, I’m crying because you’re not going to be there for my wedding because the cigarettes will kill you. I’m crying because you won’t be able to walk me up the aisle. He stopped smoking immediately. And in a similar way, I say to anybody who’s being jabbed, go to them and say

[00:19:05] I’m hurting because you’re going to die early or I’m hurting because you wearing that mask is going to kill you early. And you say I’m hurting. I’m upset. So that’s my contribution, but responsibility, everybody. That’s where we have to go to the, you cannot predict what is going to trigger somebody else with what you say.

[00:19:31] That is a mad, mad idea. Thank you, Jennifer. 

[00:19:36] Kim Knight: I’ll just add very briefly. One of the things that we have to learn on our, on our journey of emotional intelligence or emotional awareness is to stop taking responsibility for how other people respond. You know, because when we’re often people, one of the key, one of the core things is people say, well, I’m afraid of hurting someone else’s feelings. But if we drill down and you ask, well, why are you afraid of hurting someone’s feelings?

[00:19:59] It’s actually because we’re afraid of how we’ll feel if we think that other person is rejecting us. So actually where it comes back to where afraid of our own feelings. 

[00:20:10] David Charalambous: Yeah. There’s so much on this. And I think now if we move maybe to some of the more concrete things that we can do. What we have on the website is we have a document called the do’s and don’ts in conversation, which people said is very useful for them because it highlights the things that

[00:20:28] will create those responses that we don’t want. And some of the things we can do to create the responses that we do want. The, one of the biggest things you’ll see throughout the pandemic in challenging the narrative is triggering cognitive dissonance in people. Now, cognitive dissonance sounds complex, but it’s really simple.

[00:20:49] It’s when we have two things, two items of a cognitive nature that do not match. So if we could have a two thoughts that don’t match, we could have a belief that doesn’t match a thought, et cetera, et cetera. Now, one of the things that happened during the pandemic is this was actually used against us. So if the, someone was said the sentence, if you don’t do XXX, then you’re selfish,

[00:21:15] that’s going to create dissonance because you’ve got a mismatch between someone’s behavior and someone’s self image. Yeah? That’s what happens. And because people do not want to look selfish, they will often change their behavior. So cognitive dissonance, when it gets triggered, will very often be quite emotional for people.

[00:21:36] It’s, if you said to someone two plus two equals five, that would trigger a very light dissonance. No, it’s not, it’s equal to four. This is what’s going on so often when we challenge the narrative. The way of providing a conclusion that differs from the conclusion that the person believes to be true. So how can we get around this?

[00:21:59] Well, the first thing is to not to deliver conclusions because conclusions are something that we’ve arrived at. So if I say, you know, the policies don’t work, what it is, it’s a very black and white statement. So the people that believe the policies work are going to get triggered by that, or they’re certainly going to push against it.

[00:22:20] Whereas, if I start asking how effective are the policies then it’s very different, because then we start entering a conversation. Is that clear? Because this, in my opinion is one of the most common things that causes challenges in conversations. And you’ll see this on social media. You’ll see constantly that what will happen is someone will post what they consider to be a statement of fact.

[00:22:49] Then you’ll get two different responses, someone agreeing with them or someone disagreed with them. And that’s generally the most conversations that we see. We tend to take a different approach in our posts and is that we will, we will post a subtly different way. We will ask questions. We will bring out stories.

[00:23:10] We will highlight things and we will, you know, bring an information path to arrive at a conclusion.

[00:23:18] Is that clear because this, this I think is if this single thing would actually stop so many challenges in conversations. 

[00:23:29] Kim Knight: So David, I questioned then because yesterday the perfect example of this, I posted about the Guernsey conference which I, I watched yesterday which by the way, for anybody that doesn’t know what that is, is it was a conference held recently with doctors and scientists talking about you know, the situation and immediately somebody posted or misinformation la la la.

[00:23:57] How would you, how would you, what words would you view put with that post to potentially get a different response? 

[00:24:05] David Charalambous: Yeah. So then I’d say here is a group of experts discussing the things we need to look at this with an open mind. There’s- the framing, in fact, we, we’ll touch on this in a minute, but what you could also do after the fact is that what you’ll find is, and I’ll try and explain this simply because it has quite a lot of complex to its background.

[00:24:27] And I think Charles really touched on it is that we’ve all got a unique perception of the world. Every single person on this planet. Charles is absolutely right about that. And what you have is within that, we all have sort of different beliefs about certain things. And some of us will have the same beliefs. What’s happened is that historically we built our map through experience.

[00:24:50] Yeah. So if you go back to the first people, settlers, they would move around their environment and they would build their understanding, you know, tigers, bad, fruits, good, et cetera, et cetera. We sort of evolved to realize that we would tell stories to the next generation to save them the hardship of all the things that would be painful and to, you know, to make it very much a quicker process.

[00:25:14] And this is what’s developed as being an education system. You tell people a series of stories and information so they have a map of the world. This has advanced so much that people now are just being told conclusions. They’re just being given punch lines of jokes, but they don’t know the substance that makes that up.

[00:25:36] So what happens is that when that person is posting on that post, Kim, they’re saying misinformation, they’re sort of context is that is misinformation for them. Hey, it that’s what happens. So this is the thing about meaning. We also need to think about when we have two people coming into a conversation very often, if they have different views, both people think they’re correct.

[00:26:03] There’s very few people, and there are some, that are intentionally misleading people and lying. But the majority of people are actually misguided. If they’re believing something that’s not true. It’s very uncomfortable to realize that what you believe is not true. So we have to be very supportive. But what I would say to that person, Kim, and this question actually shuts up nearly all objections or trolls.

[00:26:29] So it’s really worth knowing is if they say you’re spreading misinformation, which misinformation is being spread. And what you’ll realize and what they realize is they probably don’t know because what that is is that as a script that’s been provided by the media, along with the conspiracy theorist, the anti-vaxxer, the tin hat wearing, blah, blah, blah.

[00:26:54] If you just say to the person, okay, fine, but please explain to me what did I say that was conspiratorial? What has to happen is that they have to look inside to answer that. And then they will realize very quickly, they don’t know. This is known as- there is a technical term for this, but it’s relatively simple once you, there’s a very good article on this,

[00:27:18] and I think I mentioned before, it’s the illusion of explanatory depth. We will all suffer from it to a certain degree. We think we know the things we know deeper than we actually know them and it’s only when you try to explain them to someone else, you realize how deep you know that subject. Most people, when it comes to the narrative, have a false sense of security that they know what they’re talking about.

[00:27:44] And if you say to them, no, it’s not misinformation. What are they going to say?

[00:27:50] Yes, it is. No, it isn’t. Yes, it is. No, it isn’t. Most conversations follow a predictable pattern because that’s what happens. A lot of it’s been set up. What you do is, if you can’t attack the idea, you attack the person. There’s all these standard attacks that go on. If we’re to become very good at reaching people, if we stand back and we just watch and we observe very quickly we can spot what’s going on.

[00:28:19] And we’ve highlighted many of the ones we found and anyone that looks through them and understands them, then starts applying this in their skill. They’ll find that the conversations will go very different. And particularly with these trolls. So that the thing that we just described there, Kim, it’s a, it’s kind related to the Socratic method, which obviously the Socratic method is very, very powerful, but even Socrates was sentenced to death for using the Socratic method.

[00:28:50] So it does take a certain amount of art and support to use it well. Here’s another very important tip. Never asked someone why they believe what they believe.

[00:29:02] All that’s going to happen then is it you’re going to trigger the person’s ego to defend why they believe what they believe. This is pretty much the most common way that somebody challenges it. And it’s the least effective in my experience. If you ask them politely to explain what they mean, you’re going to be doing them a very good service, because if they can explain it,

[00:29:28] then either it’s going to be another question that shows them that that might not be true, or it might be correct and we learn something. But what you have is you have the conditions that start to arise, where we’re going to have what’s known as a dialogue, which is very, very different from a debate and a conversation, is a dialogue is it’s almost circular.

[00:29:50] There’s no sides. We’re here to really have an open connection and to, to discuss this. So if we don’t say why, because that tends to be, and it’s a very powerful question why, but it has to be used in very specific circumstances because it tends to trigger the defensiveness. It tends to trigger, oh, you want to know why I’m doing this?

[00:30:13] Because I care for people. Why are you wearing a mask? Cause I care for people. You don’t care for it, et cetera. So it, it, it really takes you down this emotional justification path. May I ask, how effective are these things? Very very different. Yeah. When someone posts that’s misinformation. Well, that’s possible,

[00:30:35] please tell me which misinformation it is. You’re a conspiracy theorist. Okay. What did I say that looked conspiratorial? You see the difference. It’s very different. Because for conversation to go well, it has to feel safe, you don’t want to be attacked. You want, you don’t want to have to defend yourself.

[00:30:56] You want to be able to express yourself honestly and openly. And that’s what we want to give the space for people to do, because then they can start to explore why funny enough they believe what they 

[00:31:09] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: David that was explained so well. And I think everybody’s getting so much out of this discussion and, and explanation and conversation and, and each one of you brings forward another different aspect, but no, this is really great. Thank you very much. 

[00:31:25] Anne, would you like to contribute in here because it’s, the conversation is so rich and I know each one of you has so much you can contribute in every aspect of this discussion.

[00:31:36] Anne O’Reilly: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s, it’s- I mean, I see myself having been in so many of those situations where there’s an impasse and, you know, really that idea of stepping back and observing and listening and, you know, feeling if I suppose its like coming from you know, we’re all human beings and what’s happened is that we’ve been divided and conquered, you know, and we’re battling each other.

[00:32:12] So it’s like, well, that’s not going to go- it’s going to be, you know, it’s going to be terrible. And, and it is terrible. And that’s what people are suffering from. So just that, you know, understanding that you can have a circular kind conversation where everybody feels safe and like, you’re not, you know what, knowing why is going to trigger somebody’s ego to feel totally on the defensive and it’s going to stop things.

[00:32:45] And it seems like the how and the what are just much safer. 

[00:32:52] David Charalambous: One other way that’s very useful to think about a conversation is to imagine that if there’s two people in the conversation, imagine that you’re standing on a soap box. Okay. This soap box represents your unconscious mind, everything you believe to be true, all the experiences that you’ve had in life. You then project that out onto the world.

[00:33:15] That’s just natural. It’s not to say that projection is a bad thing. Projection is a natural thing. We can’t, you know, we, we literally project her understanding onto the world. The more that we can realize that it’s just our map, we can actually create distinction. But the reason I mentioned this is because what you’ll find is is that both people are projecting their maps onto the conversation about what’s in the soap box.

[00:33:40] And that leads us to a very important point is that you’re not going to- people’s belief systems are not changed by facts like through the front door. And what maybe that is, is very hard to get someone to rationally accept something that they believe is the opposite to what they think is true. If somebody thinks two plus two equals five, no amount of conscious reason in that equals four is going to make any difference until that information gets into the soap box, because what’s going on the conscious mind is accessing that data from the soap box.

[00:34:17] This is why the most effective way- so the questions effectively, the question is getting someone to look at what’s in the soap box and then they can go, oh, actually, I don’t know. You know, because that question that you asked that Kim, when you say to someone, what misinformation am I spreading? That person will realize they don’t know.

[00:34:36] So in fact they have a realization. Actually, I thought something was in that soap box. Nothing’s in there. When you start to ask them what’s in there and there is something in there, then what you will be doing very effectively via stories and metaphors is to enrich their map to, to, for information, to go into the soap box.

[00:34:58] This is why most people get their information from the media, because the information is packaged in such an effective way for your unconscious mind to absorb it. And as Jerome Burma showed it’s 22 times more effective to wrap a fact in a story than it is to have a raw fact. It’s incredible in the- what I tend to do with information is I just tell people stories, and then people absorbed that information that goes in your unconscious mind.

[00:35:28] If they absorb enough stories, then they will shift their point of view. And the rational mind will literally think differently. This, this is how we naturally learn. And if you think about how people have learned over the last two years, they’ve been exposed to a one sided narrative and the person that’s been fully exposed to that, to them

[00:35:54] that is the truth to them. The people challenging that are conspiracy theorists. So you start to understand why people see this way they see it. The game has been rigged to a certain degree that if, and this is where it’s ready to stay, calm to point this out to people, to open them up, most people and the touch on something that’s very fascinating.

[00:36:19] 85% of people think they’re less biased than the average person. Think about that. 85% think the less biased than the average. Obviously that can’t be true. What you have is, is that when we challenge the narrative, the standard person’s view is they must be a conspiracy theorist. That leads us to a really weird circular reference that it’s black and white.

[00:36:50] Everything that the mainstream narrative says is true and anything that challenges that is false. That’s why classification is crazy. And this is the same thing is to understand, is that when someone calls you an anti-vaxxer or a conspiracy theorist or any of the other characatures as it were, if you don’t reverse that before you have a conversation, they are going to ignore every single thing you say.

[00:37:25] This is so fundamental to understand that when you can get past these few big obstacles, you will find the conversations will flow so much better and you’ll begin to understand why they don’t. What happens, all the empirical studies that I’ve looked at showed that there’s someone classifies two people.

[00:37:45] So let’s say I classify myself as an anti something and the other person pro something. All we’re going to do is spend our time trying to convince the other person. There’s going to be no listening. There’s going to be a complete ignorance of all the things that other person says. Because this is tribal.

[00:38:04] This is really in a deep psyche of us. And that’s why these terms have so much energy and resources spent conditioning them. Once they’ve created these terms, anti this pro that, then what you’ll find is that then one side of that is conditioned to appear as immoral. This is when a lot of the emotions get triggered because the part of the brain responsible for disgust is the same part of the brain

[00:38:36] that’s responsible for morality. So you’ll see people who’re really experiencing disgust at someone not wearing a mask. And that’s why. They’re not intending to do so it’s just their brain is activating. 

[00:38:52] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: Can I ask you something too? And this is to the group to whoever would like to answer this on totally related to everything you’re talking about.

[00:39:01] When you talk about just engage in the conversation and what to talk about, it really is how you initiate this discussion too, that sets things off. So you have to consciously tell me if this is, your opinion on this. You have to consciously expect confrontation and then try to ask them to explain to you where, why they feel that way rather than you- cause it right away, it’s there, they’ve just set a fire under you.

[00:39:35] Right? And you really want to act like you’re actually wanting to engage with them and find out why they do that. You know, it’s, it’s a passive way again, to keep yourself calm, not be confrontational. But that’s pretty tricky because it, you know, it is something that is, has to be practiced and learned. Do you want to give some pointers about this?

[00:39:56] Any of you? 

[00:39:57] David Charalambous: Yeah. Firstly, I do think that there comes a point where when you understand all the obstacles that you’re going to face that in fact, you can- I, it’s been my experience that there’s not much conflict. So I really don’t experience, you know, in a in-person conversation much conflict at all. I come from a position where I’m very empathetic about why they see things the way they see them.

[00:40:26] So I don’t attack that. I think whenever- so one of the things is, is that when people don’t honor our experience, it’s very- it’s not nice. It’s just really uncomfortable. If somebody says to you, oh, you were XXX denier and blah, blah, blah. It feels like an attack. So if we spin that round, we want not to do that for the other person.

[00:40:54] Okay. So we don’t say you, this, you that as I think I mentioned last week, that there’s the quickest way to trigger someone and get them annoyed is to say they are wrong. If you said to someone you are wrong- which I see academics and scientists doing all the time, that triggers the hell out of them. When you look at some people like Kirsch and Pierre Kory, they phrase it very differently.

[00:41:19] Kirsch is really putting it, when he talks to someone, he has it very much as a, let’s have a dialogue about this, from what I can see when I read a lot of the articles I’ve read and I haven’t read all of them. So it’s approaching it in such a way that it’s not your wrong and I’m right. That literally is going to trigger the hell out of people.

[00:41:41] Then you made a very, another very important point, which is known as framing. So what is the initial frame I enter the conversation. Now, if you don’t know what frame you’re in and, and it’s not complex, it sounds initially. But what I mean is if I go into a conversation and it’s framed as I’m anti X, X, X, and they’re pro X, X, X, the conversation is pointless.

[00:42:06] So you want to extract yourself from that frame and enter a different frame. Another example for framing is where the media does it constantly, where they, they give a perspective on a fact. So with Joe Rogan, CNN said controversial podcaster takes horse dewormer. So you see what they’ve done. They, they they’ve told you what to think about this piece of information.

[00:42:33] They haven’t given you a unbiased fact. So we can’t ever be completely unbiased and completely observational. But journalists of the past, when you look at Cheryl Atkinson, that was their goal and they would do, some of them would do a pretty good job. She, from what I can see did a really good job. The frame that we get entered into, because it’s invisible to us,

[00:43:00] and which really the frame is this context that we talk about. If we’re not conscious of it, then we literally are blind. That makes sense. We are trying to move on this obstacle course with no success, but if we become conscious of it and we, and we deal with it, then what you find is so many of the other problems do not arise. And the simplest way that I can give,

[00:43:30] and I was going to talk to you Kim, about this, is that really, if someone says, you know, put your mask on, I don’t feel safe around you, then you know that their principle goal is to feel safe. So that’s your principal. So you say to them, okay, so we want you to feel safe. Can we chat about how that occurs?

[00:43:55] So always what I’m looking to do is to find what is the common ground. Once you have common ground, you talk about it. What happens is that the brains of each person is saying, okay, this person isn’t the enemy, they’re not in opposition to me. That’s so key. Once you can develop common ground, then you can find the whole energy changes.

[00:44:19] And there’s so many ways to establish common ground, which is to talk about something that you agree on. And when you go to principle, you’ll find that, and it shocks people sometimes. So someone to go, oh, you believe this and blah, blah, blah. And I’d say, I really care about people’s health and I hope that your health is great, just like- and that sort of shocks them out of this caricature that they just assume that when you believe a certain thing, you’re just immoral and you don’t care

[00:44:46] and all these things

[00:44:48] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: Nice points made there. And you wanted to engage Kim with that. You’ve had some discussion you wanted, Kim, did you want to add to that? 

[00:44:57] Kim Knight: Oh, I was just going to say, well, could we look at this example that we’ve touched on before we got on the live call of you know, me suddenly finding out from a family member that I can’t visit them because I’m not vaccinated and well, how do you, and I did actually send an email back asking some questions.

[00:45:18] Well actually not asking questions, like giving facts, but in a questioning way, like, did you know that blah, blah, blah. And what, and what was interesting– and I, and I thought about another question afterwards that I haven’t yet sent, but what was interesting was I didn’t get, I didn’t even get a response from, you know, the cognitive just too great.

[00:45:42] It’s just, yeah. 

[00:45:45] David Charalambous: Yeah, you generally won’t, this is what’s really key. You generally won’t get engagement when there’s a disconnect on principle. Not that there is, but you see what happens is that you first got to establish common ground and it’s really this safety is so much of this and it’s, it’s not safety in the sense of, well, in this case, it might be, but it’s safety in the sense that the brain feels safe to open up.

[00:46:10] And this example would be okay, you know, you would say, I can hear that this is really important to you so together, let’s make sure that this happens. So it’s really to find this pace where the person feels heard, acknowledged, and then you’re going to work towards helping them achieve that outcome. What happens is you start moving the same way, and then after a little while you can say

[00:46:44] so your outcome is to feel completely safe. Yes. So if there were details that made it, that we actually could spend a bit of time together was just as safe as this or that, would you, would that be good news? You see where it’s completely different approach because it’s, it’s– what happens is if they feel like you’re trying to convince them that creates what’s known as reactions.

[00:47:14] This is the natural resistance to want to be the people wanting to change us. This is the example of walking into a shop and the salesman’s too pushy. You might actually want what that salesman is selling but if they’re too pushy, what happens? You pull back. You don’t want that anymore. This is one of another one of those common things that occurs is if we go out of our way to convince, I’m going to convince you with these three facts, what’s going to happen?

[00:47:47] You’re going to see this massive pushback. Yeah. And you can see it. I’ve actually watched it in conversations where the person will be standing. The person pushes and the other person goes, whoa, and then pushes back.

[00:47:58] And this doesn’t happen when you’re connected to people and you, you share stories, et cetera. So I think this is a really another- and we call it the, you know, don’t be evangelical and it’s really to give you the picture of the extreme version of this. I probably committed this one more than anybody else at the beginning was: you need to watch these three videos,

[00:48:23] this is important, et cetera, et cetera. It it’s just too much. People just want to pull away.

[00:48:30] Everyone has a certain amount of information that they can absorb at any one time. So being very conscious of, when you speak to someone of where you speak to someone and how much you speak to someone. And it really does come, a lot of it is really down to intention. So if we can cultivate a mindset, which is, you know, just sort of radiate in this information that I’m going to, when an opportunity comes up, I’ll give you my opinion, rather than I’m trying to force this in.

[00:49:02] And I know that this, this is a hard one because it’s so important for people to listen. But the key point is that way does not work. Yeah. The trying to force information into people has such a low success rate that we, we really need to develop this way to create this, this dialogue. 

[00:49:24] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: What about asking questions?

[00:49:26] David Charalambous: It is very good. And it’s really key that the person feels that you’re on their side. If you ask a question where the person thinks that, you know, you’re stepping in the ring, this so much of this is the soft stuff that you can’t see that I know that when I’ve had conversations with people and then we get to the point where, you know, I truly, they truly feel that I’m literally on their side and we’re, we’re, you know, we’re on common ground.

[00:49:54] Then they really do open up really well. But if they feel that I’m going to try and convince them of something that might endanger them, that’s when they will shut down. 

[00:50:06] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: When they ask you questions to, for instance, and if you can answer that with a simple question, like, you know, they’ll say, you know, what do you think of the advertisements on the radio and TV saying that, you know, Ivermectin is horse paste.

[00:50:21] And if you just come back and say, well, have you ever wondered why they’re spending so much money advertising all of this hundreds of millions of dollars advertising, if they think it doesn’t work and that it’s, you know, useless and then you get them starting a conversation, Charles, would you like to comment on that?

[00:50:41] Charles Kovess: Yes. I think the starting of the conversation where I would take the summary of what David’s been saying is to prepare responses. Prepare questions and responses. And I have seven standard responses that I have practiced when somebody says I’m offended by what you said. So when somebody says you’re an anti-vaxxer or you’re a conspiracy theorist, are you, then I have a set of answers and all of us who are concerned about what’s going on from this conversation, prepare and get ready to practice your answers.

[00:51:20] And then you’ll see what works. And you’ll see from previous conversations, what has worked and what works. So Jennifer, you said right at the start, I think you said, Hey, we’ve got to get better at this. Don’t just be stuck in your own standard response. So that’s why you’ve joined this conversation. Ah, there’s an idea.

[00:51:39] Don’t just go away from this conversation. Write down your next use of words. That’s my suggestion.

[00:51:49] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: Thank you. 

[00:51:50] David Charalambous: What happens is when you develop, when you start trying different things and observe what people respond to very quickly on, you’ll get a real feel for the conversation. It’s like many things you really just develop this distinctions between knowing what this person’s going to respond to and not.

[00:52:10] And of course you can take a quick shortcut to a lot of these by reading the do’s and don’ts document we’ve got on the website. Cause it will highlight these. And Charles said really well, is that if you then practice those with other people would be brilliant you’ll soon see, ah, I realize why that doesn’t work.

[00:52:31] So I’m, and then through enough consciousness you’ll stop doing it.

[00:52:35] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: It’s actually kind of fun to do that – you’d be amazed how you may trip over your words. So it does take some practice for sure. 

[00:52:43] David Charalambous: Oh, absolutely. It can also be quiet- it can be really rewarding and you can have fun as well. There’s always should be fun on these things. What is our intention? Our intention is to connect in a better conversations.

[00:52:56] Yeah. That’s an intention is not to convince the other person what I believe is true. That’s really, that’s when the intention gets a bit distorted. If our intention is to have a lovely open conversation where the truth might arise, we don’t have to really focus on, you know, we go away and check that our data is correct, but we create the situation where we’re not attached to what we believe.

[00:53:19] Yeah. 

[00:53:20] Charles Kovess: There’s another issue here, coming to a starting point. So you have this and Kim’s, you know, it’s a sad story. Isn’t it? Where someone says, I don’t want you here when you haven’t been jabbed. And the question to ask somebody is, are you interested in having a future relationship with me? 

[00:53:40] Now, if a person says, no, accept that. Please don’t hold on to stuff. But if a person says yes, I want to have a relationship with you, that’s a starting point. One of the key principles to the negotiation- I’ve negotiated, the biggest deal I’ve negotiated is a $500 million deal. And that was 20 years ago so multiply by four, a $2 billion transaction.

[00:54:03] You cannot negotiate with somebody who does not want to negotiate. So don’t even bother. You, either you say to the person, I don’t want to be in a relationship, walk away and then tell them anytime you want to change your mind, I’m open to discussion. And so that precondition is so crucial because some people might just wipe you for being an anti there in mind them on an anti-jabber, good.

[00:54:29] Let that go. Give that to God. 

[00:54:32] David Charalambous: Well, they there’s actually the point actually, there’s really important, which what is the initial frame that we enter? So what is the beginning of the conversation? And with Kim, she can go, you know, well, obviously we want to, because it’s a family member, we want to find something that works for both of us.

[00:54:51] What happens is you get that common ground and you get a connection, you know, let’s find something that works for both of us. And then if you really hear and listen to them, you can, you can start with getting in there because you don’t know because there’s there’s information that we know if that person was exposed to, they will change their view, getting them exposed to it’s the challenge.

[00:55:12] Okay. Because they’re not gonna want to be feeling that they’re being changed and all that thing. And that’s why telling people facts really doesn’t work that well. Telling them a story about certain things, what happens is they start to get engaged. They start to build these pictures in their mind and it effortly goes in.

[00:55:31] There’s no reason why, you know, when you think about why so many people bought up the media, you know, the media is terrible making money, but it’s an incredible tool for marketing and getting people to believe things. And that’s why so many influential people bought the media because they saw that’s what it was.

[00:55:53] People are not buying newspapers and other things, and they’re not spending money on them. But this is one, I think this is one of the most important and the least appreciated things about influencing someone ethically and positively is the role of storytelling. Plato literally said those that tell the stories rule society.

[00:56:18] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: We have I ha- I see Rebecca Girl in the chat and saying, and this is a lot of difficulty people, Rebecca, it’s true about storytelling and I find it difficult. So what would you recommend to prepare, like you said Charles, you talked about preparing answers to questions is maybe preparing yourself with stories too.

[00:56:40] Is, is that a way to help people too? I mean, again, like you said, the practice sessions, you can even do it by yourself. If you can think of the questions that you know that you keep getting asked that trip you up, because you get a little bit emotional about it is try and create a story around it. 

[00:56:57] David Charalambous: Well, in fact, I think it’s a lot easier than people realize. People don’t realize when you meet someone and you tell them about your day, you’re telling them a story.

[00:57:07] Okay. When you tell them about where you went last night, you’re telling them a story. The brain naturally communication stories. We then think, okay, I’m going to give this person just a fact by fact, list of these three facts. That’s what we tend to do around like these key things. When all we need to do is just tell them the story about how we learnt it.

[00:57:29] It’s been my experience that the response there is, is the natural response that most people say, oh, stories, I’m no good at telling stories, without realizing we’re all brilliant at telling stories, we might not be able to get up on stage and tell stories like comedians do it a bit, but that’s an unrealistic expectation of ourselves.

[00:57:50] When people talk to their children, they tell them loads of stories. When they talk to their families and family, they’re telling stories all the time. It’s very easy to, to look around at the narrative. If you watched any of the videos by any of the people on the World Council for Health you would have 20, 30 stories.

[00:58:08] If you, somebody who reads Sharyl Attkisson’s book, Slanted, you’re going to have probably a hundred stories of where the media is not telling the truth. Okay. And this is the thing, stories-

[00:58:21] you’ll be surprised how many you already know. And then what, what I’ve just done is really when somebody comes up with something, I think about a story that I have that explains that. If I don’t have one at the time and I go back to my computer, I just have a look around the internet.

[00:58:38] And I find one. Classic example, asymptomatic transmission. So if I said, Jennifer, oh, it doesn’t exist. Blah, blah, blah. What have I done? I’ve given you a conclusion. If you believe the opposite, you’re just going to bat that away. Ah, it was interesting, I read about- now I’m going to tell the story-

[00:58:55] so it’s interesting, I read about asymptomatic transmission. I was wondering where did it come from? So then I looked into it, do you know that there was actually two studies? That was it. One study was only seven people. Only seven people! They actually made up a whole scientific conclusion based on seven people.

[00:59:13] As it turned out this woman wasn’t asymptomatic. She had, she was being treated by a doctor. So, so you just want to do it. I’m just telling the story of this and I need to check all the exact facts of that, but that’s what I would recall. And then if that was one, I’d want to tell, I would just wipe that down, tell it once or twice or three times, and then suddenly you’ve got the thing in you, but your, I think the goal, a lot of the time, it’s just open people up to the possibility of knowing that all these things are there.

[00:59:43] Then each objection they have, you can have a story with, but the key to understand, if someone is really objecting to you in a strong way, that is an indication that they see you as opposition. And that’s the way and the time where you say I’m on your side, I really want this. I want the, you know, I want you to be in good health.

[01:00:07] And once you get that through, then you’ll see the energy change. Right. My dog wants to say hello.

[01:00:12] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: Thank you so much. And cause I think this is what people are struggling with the most too, is, is communication. And with people that they consider their best friends, their closest family members. And as we got a comment earlier, too, was talking about the family again and how some, you can have a conversation with whether they agree with you or not,

[01:00:36] they’re open to conversation and then others that don’t. And it’s just a, it does trigger emotion when it’s family and it’s, it’s a whole process you need to go through to help to keep yourself in the right space. Otherwise you’re going to disconnect from them completely. So they may choose to do that, and you have to accept that and just let it flow because the, you know, they’ll come back.

[01:00:59] They will. But yeah. 

[01:01:02] David Charalambous: And everyone has a, everyone has the sort of stretch zone. Yeah. And you can get someone to understand, you know, one or two things, and then you literally might have to stop there because once they go at the stretch zone and they shut down. The thing that I- is if you just focus on stories, metaphors, and questions, and stay away from, you know, challenging people too much, they gradually- their map of what they see will gradually shift.

[01:01:31] And it’s shifting already because the narrative is shifting. So it’s much easier now than it was say one year ago, but that’s going to be, the focus is it’s, it’s a piece by piece approach. Yeah. So just a little bit, little bit. Sewing the seams a little bit, a little bit, enriching this person’s map. And then at some point what tends to happen is the whole thing,

[01:01:51] and they go, ah. And I’ve had people come up to me like months later, I hadn’t seen and says, oh, I can’t believe I can literally see it now. I couldn’t see it before. And they tell me they completely changed their view. And it’s really, you, you know, one of the things really, I think is about you can’t force someone into believing something. I know that’s what we feel, this sort of intention, but the more we feel that way more we do that, they will resist.

[01:02:16] And that’s, that’s this real thing known as reactants that- people will actually, in fact, one study to quickly discuss is that they had repeated the study numerous times. They had people with opposing belief systems. And what they did was they presented each group with all the information and data, very well laid out about the other group’s view.

[01:02:38] Okay. They expected people to come closer to the middle. Do you know what happened? They actually went the other way. They believed what they believed even stronger. When you push against someone’s belief, it will push back because they’re trying to hold on to what they believe. If you gently just share information and stories, they don’t get a choice.

[01:03:01] You can’t unsee the gorilla. Then that would be one of the big tips. 

[01:03:08] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: Those are really great. Thank you so much. Now, I just want to announce to everybody because we’re coming close to the end of our session. Next week in our connection room, we’re going to have Dr. Kat Lindley is going to be talking with us about mental health and children, and we’re going to be discussing the effects of masking children and also just the isolation, what this, what the lockdowns have been doing to the children.

[01:03:37] So I think you’re going to find this very fascinating, and I think this feeds in very much so to everything we’re discussing right now. And would any of you like to say anything like that? Would you like to contribute anything more to, to our discussion today? Cause we have, we haven’t closed. I just wanted to make sure I got that in there before everybody says goodbye. But this is a fascinating discussion. We keep coming back to it for sure. Yes, please

[01:04:04] Charles. 

[01:04:05] Charles Kovess: I just want to let, to show people, because I talk about this in terms of practicing dialogue, I’ve got to go in a moment, but I want to share how simple these practiced responses can be. I certainly love the idea of stories. That’s what the Tony Robbins example is about of stories. And so here’s seven simple responses to somebody who says I’m offended.

[01:04:30] You could do the same thing to say, you’re a conspiracy theorist. Oh, you’re an anti-vaxxer or so, and this depends on the environment that you want to maintain and David’s talking about that, but here’s an example. I’ve written this out over the years. This is what I’ve practiced. So when someone says I’m offended, David, by what you just said, Jennifer, I’m offended.

[01:04:53] You can say different categories. That’s interesting, tell me more about your offense. Second one. This can be done. This is a short form for anything. How do you mean? And, but you must shut up when you ask these questions. Don’t justify a question. How do you mean? Next one, Jennifer, I’m offended that you dare tell me that you’re offended.

[01:05:21] Now we’re both offended. What do you suggest? Scrambles their brain. I promise you. We’re both offended. And by the way, if you’re at a dinner party and someone says I’m offended, I have no trouble saying I’m offended that you did raise that. Next one. Number four, the shorter version someone says I’m offended.

[01:05:41] You have- And?

[01:05:44] Just imagine the response if I say And? They stop. Now, it’s like a fish because they expected it. I said they were offended. You have to then go into full on justification. Number five, number five. Wow, you get offended easily, don’t you? Number six. Your offense is of no concern to me. Or you being offended is of no concern to me.

[01:06:12] Number seven, I don’t care. And you can say different- invite- if you’re at a dinner party, you wouldn’t say I don’t care, but I promise you these seven cover almost all examples of it and they work and it really reinforces, you know, how you, how easy it is to write that you’ve all been in situations that are difficult.

[01:06:33] Remember those, go back to the story of those situations as David’s suggesting and, and do that practice. So Jennifer, that’s what I wanted to share. 

[01:06:42] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: That’s really good. Thank you very much. Definitely. When you talk about all of that, it highlights be aware of the environment and the situation you’re in and be careful, the line, you don’t want to cross the line. So you do want to read that person because you can pick up very quickly if you’re with somebody combative or if they’re actually listening to, to you. So that’s, that’s really very interesting and thank you so much, Charles, cause it’s always such valuable, really awesome.

[01:07:13] Now I’d like to let everybody know that Friday we have connect, say something, the connection room we have on Friday. Can you hear me? Can everybody mute? Maybe that’s easier. On Friday we have a connection room. We have a meditation session and Dan will be leading the meditation. Dan, do you want to just announce a little bit about the meditation that you’ll be leading on from.

[01:07:39] And this is at four o’clock Eastern daylight time, which is nine o’clock London time. Anybody else want to contribute the timeframe? How about a New Zealand time? 

[01:07:51] Dan: Actually I haven’t looked it up yet. I think it’s pretty early, but that’s okay. Meditation’s best in the morning. So yeah. I think actually a lot of what David’s talked about and Kim and as it leads in to the meditation and that it’s all about personal responsibility and where do we practice personal responsibility.

[01:08:18] We practice that and the feeling body with meditation. And the idea is that with, with the feeling body, this, this is this is our emotional body. This is how we feel about things. This is where a lot of the stories are getting processed, so to speak and actually just coming to be at peace. So this, this idea of cognitive dissonance is actually something we can feel.

[01:08:49] So it’s an unpleasant sensation body. And so th that’s basically what we’re exploring with meditation is how do we, what does it, yeah. What does it mean to be offended? You know, talk about being a bit of, how am I offended? You know, let me feel into that. So maybe there’s like knots in your stomach.

[01:09:09] Maybe that’s like an uncomfortable feeling. You know when we’re meditating, we’re not we’re not so concerned with engagements. We’re not in the frontal cortex trying to work out what to say or what, what to do. We’re just, we’re actually using that intelligence to connect with those sensations and go, oh, okay.

[01:09:31] So this is what offended is. It’s this unpleasant sensation I want to be out of my skin. I want to get out of, out of this situation. When we learn to be at peace with this offensive feeling, then we are no longer offended in that situation. So this is, this is training of how to be, I guess, in your skin, so to speak and these situations.

[01:09:59] And then if you add truly not offended, as David mentioned, the intention, the intention, the other person. That you are not intending to sell them a story or convince them that they shouldn’t be offended because you, you must be right. Your intention is to heads in, be at peace for you to be at peace for them to be at peace.

[01:10:23] And, and then that’s a great place to communicate the messages. So just as Kat was saying, like a study that shows that there’s a 22 point IQ drop in infants born during this time, and then, and then I think that information when you’re at this state of peace within, and then you’re transmitting the story, did you know, then I think that really comes into people per se.

[01:10:49] And maybe it is just about building trust, you know? So if people don’t feel like you’re there to offend them or upset them, and there’s a naturally a sense of trust. 

[01:11:01] Dr Jennifer Hibberd: Yeah, you’re so right. And you know, then we get into the energy, right. And that we’re picking up each other’s energy. And a lot of the time we, we forget.

[01:11:10] So if you can calm yourself and again, that’s where meditation will help. You can calm yourself and bring yourself into a centered place. You actually can take the energy to a level that communicates it. Doesn’t it’s not a combative communication at all. So it’s, it’s really good. So we really look forward to your meditation on Friday and again, on a reminder about next, next Wednesday for our connection room, Dr.

[01:11:36] Kat Lindley will be with us to discuss the mental health issues in children related to lockdowns and the masking. So it’ll be really fascinating and interesting. And thank you everybody for joining us today as always, this is really a wonderful learning experience for every one of us. And thank you for joining us.

[01:11:54] Thank you so much, guys. Yes. Let’s see you Friday.

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